Here's a little bit more for you from the talk I'm listening to. I'll post every once and a while as I listen so you can kind of have a summary of what the teacher is talking about. Anyway, posting helps me, too, because I can take time out and have a deeper understanding of what it is I'm learning.
I never would have thought this when I was a teenager, or even in my early twenties, but I was not watching my thoughts. I was absorbed in my thoughts, even entangled in them. When I started meditating back in 2005 - I don't meditate very often - I tried to stop my thoughts. I don't know if you can say I was watching them, though. But when they would come up, I'd simply let them pass by without paying much attention to them. I'd so strongly ignore them that often the thought wouldn't even finish itself, kind of like stopping midsentence, and then I'd go back into silence, and the cycle would repeat itself. I don't know if this can be considered watching my thoughts or not. The speaker says that people don't know they are watching their thoughts. They also do not know that they are NOT their thoughts, and they are NOT their emotions.
The first step out of this absortion with thoughts and emotions, according to the teacher, is to pull yourself back to the center, which he says is not a place. By "centering", he means that we pull ourselves away from whatever it is we're absorbed in, like a t.v. for instance, and bring our awareness back to where we are. Then, you can see what it was you were absorbed in, as opposed to being absorbed in it, and you are no longer lost in what you were absorbed in, and are more generally aware. When you center yourself, you can see your thoughts as thoughts, as opposed to being engrossed in them. Well, at least most of the thoughts.
An interesting and rather profound point that he makes, is that a thought is simply a thought. It doesn't matter how strong the thought is, it is simply a thought. The same goes for emotions. He used the analogy of weather to get the point across. When it is storming, it is still just weather. When it is snowing, or the sun is shining, it is just weather. And so, no matter what thought you're thinking, or emotion you're feeling, it's just a thought and an emotion. There will come a time, after we learn to center ourselves, that all the changes in our thoughts and emotions will have no effect on the seat of consciousness.
Break time - more later.
28 comments:
It has a lot to do with semantics. What is a thought? What is an emotion? I am listening to Mendelssohn and the music reminds me of nights when metaphysical speculations with my mother went on deep into the night. We had fewer distractions in those days. This centre you speak of is always there. It is you. There is really nothing to strive for. Life is a wonderful gift.
I really like the idea of not giving thoughts or emotions too much importance, but instead, just treating them as things that come and go. If I could live this way, there'd be less heartache. Of course, doing so would also mean that the good thoughts and feelings similarly wouldn't have much importance, but maybe there is a way to do a little negotiation. Such as, letting the bad thoughts and feelings come and go without letting them affect me, while letting myself pay more attention to the good thoughts and feelings. I don't know yet how this should work.
Must be nice to have these sorts of conversations with your mother. I don't bring these things up to my parents, because they wouldn't understand. Mom can handle that I am a little different than the rest of the herd, but my father would be disappointed. When I was a girl and then a teenager, I had a piano teacher who became my close friend. I was able to talk to her about metaphysical things. I haven't seen her in years, since before 1996, and finally we got in touch again. I'm supposed to go visit her this weekend. I'm really excited about it. It's events like this that make your statement true - that life is a wonderful gift.
You're getting there..
So near & yet so far ¦:¬รพ
BUT THIS IS WHERE YOU 'LOSE TRACK' - "If I could live this way, there'd be less heartache.."
ENLIGHTENMENT WILL NOT MAKE ANYTHING EASIER OR 'BETTER'.
You will simply 'know-that-you-know' by having the ability to transcend the 'knowing/not-knowing'-dichotomy.
This 'Autolysis' stuff is designed to show you the limitations & paradoxical-nature of conceptual-thought.
But you will have to get there by yourself;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;
You have no idea how vulgar your vain-graspings look to me (my ego).
You could always just: Be ALONE - for a very long time..
.. that'd learn ya ¦:¬)
Luck..
Peace x
"A wise man can see more from the bottom of a well than a fool can from a mountain top."
~Unknown
Hi Twit,
This stuff really is extremely paradoxical. It's said that we're already enlightened. If that's true, then everyone is enlightened, yet I clearly see a difference between some enlightened people and others. So, something must have made them enlightened, something must have been done to make them so, yet some people say to quit struggling so hard to get enlightened.
I know you say enlightenment will not make things easier or better, but to me it seems like if one is able to pay less attention to otherwise destructive thoughts, that alone seems like a benefit.
These thoughts are limiting, I know they are, yet if I had not been thinking about enlightenment, I would never have started the journey, and then I would never have a chance to reach realization. I would probably still be playing video games, instead.
I am sure my grasping seems vulgar to you, and probably also to anyone else who reads my blog that is already enlightened. To them (and you) I probably seem like an ant struggling not to drown in a swimming pool. I probably annoy others, like, "Why isn't she getting it? Why can't she see what's clearly right in front of her face?" It would be like me trying to explain algebra to someone who just can't get it. To me, algebra seems so easy, so second nature, yet to them, it is like climbing Mt. Everest.
About being alone, I have this fantasy that my imagination created. In it, God is all alone, and so he becomes the Universe and all the people and gives himself and everyone self-inflicted amnesia, so that we can't remember who we really are. Like, maybe God did that so He/She/It would feel less alone. But all the while, we are all this God-like being, and God is really truly alone.
¦:¬|
This is getting closer to the meat of the issue. Twit has a very good observation of Autolysis is directed at cleaning out the junk in your head.
Thought is just a function of the mind. It is quite useful at making the body comfortable. It is almost magical in its ability to predict the future of the physical world. The trap is using it for unintended purposes. Because it is so powerful at predicting the future of the physical world, we think it is also useful for predicting the unseen world of spirit.
Another misconception is that behavior is a measure of a person's internal state. If I were enlightened I'd ---fill in the blank---. Enlightenment or realization is not a behavior, it is a ...well... enlightenment or realization. Like "Oh, that car is red". It's not useful for anything, it's just ends speculation about the color of the car. "Oh, the world really is ONE". Not useful for anything, it just ends speculation on what the nature of the world is. I might change behavior because of knowing the baseline nature of appearances, but then again, I might not. If it's all ONE, how can "I" do anything? Nowhere to go, nothing to do, no one to do it.
Does your dog try really hard to be a proper dog?
Where did we get the idea we need to try really hard to be a proper human?
MMmmmm...I was thinking about that thought... :)
Hi Sophia. just managed to drop by and I do think your observations are pretty good, or the talk you are listening to is pretty good. I tend to be terribly sceptical about meditation as I was badly taught, but in the end I don't complain because it threw me back on my own resources. I did an hour a day (sometimes 2) for 30 years, but now I never bother in that formal way. I like to look at the sky or even a wall and enjoy being alive.
"How do you postpone enlightenment?"
"Or how can you postpone enlightenment?"
"Or how could you postpone enlightenment?"
Hehe... thanks, Twit. :)
Hi Joe,
I think I need an industrial cleaner for this job!
I was thinking about this last night as I listened to the talk further... it would be impossible to clear out all thoughts because we need our thoughts to help us get through the world, and to do our jobs. Even if we went to live in a cave we'd still have to think about eating.
Even if there isn't much to do with enlightenment, I'd like to just finally end speculation. Of course, then I'd have to find other things to do to fill my time, but at least then this apparent obsession would give me a break.
Heh.. no, my dog definitely does not try hard to be a proper dog. Sometimes I think he tries hard to be improper. :)
When I think of enlightenment, I do tend to think of a proper human, but that's probably because of my history with Christianity from childhood. After listening to Jed for a little while, I began to see that one doesn't have to be too proper to be enlightened. :)
Jon be me,
LOL We must be in the same boat.
Hi Vincent,
The talk is pretty good. I have just a little bit more to listen to, probably about five to seven more minutes. If I can get in touch with the person who gave it to me, I'll see if it's OK if I share it with you guys.
I never really thought that meditation alone would make me enlightened, but the physical and emotional benefits of it really are appealing. Many times after meditating, I'd come out feeling relaxed and more serene, when before meditation my nerves sometimes could be rattling.
You managed to stick with meditation for a very long time. It'll take me 27 years to catch up with you. I am sure there must have been some health benefits?
Anonymous,
First I'd ask you, "Why would I want to postpone enlightenment?"
I think if someone wanted to postpone it bad enough, they could keep identifying with their ego, or become entangled in their thoughts.
(And yes, currently I'm still at this stage, but I am making improvements.)
WOW!!
Anonymous,
That's what I said. :)
You are the ego. And I like you. You're ok and I'm ok.
The paradox lies within our dualistic concepts and has no meaning to the dynamic whole. When we realize that we cannot define the limits of reality then we can just simply be a part of it.
You suggested there would have been health benefits from my 30 years of meditation. Well actually, the commencement of what was later diagnosed as Chronic Fatigue Syndrome started 2 years after I started the meditation and got better three years after I stopped. I now understand that the illness was due to suppressed emotion and was not unconnected with the spiritual values I had embraced along with the meditation itself.
I must have known thousands of meditators and I don't think there was any common effect that would make one say it was a good or bad thing. What we practised was not just meditation but also an ill-defined devotion or obedience to what we thought were appropriate spiritual values. I believe now it messed up our basic equilibrium in the same way that some kind of electronic implant might mess up a person's brain function.
Anonymous,
Similar to what Jed says in his book, the ego is just a mask that we wear, and even enlightened people put on this mask in order to get through life and the world. Otherwise, I think they'd resemble a zombie! I hope that after I'm enlightened, I can put the mask back on, even if that means it's not going to be permanently attached to my face.
Leighton,
I think enlightenment would make a wonderful break from the dance. I can't remember the exact wording, but there's a koan or parable that goes something like this: Before enlightenment, a mountain is a mountain. During enlightenment, a mountain is not a mountain. After enlightenment, a mountain is a mountain again.
Don't know why it's so necessary for us humans to want to define reality. It's kind of like this is one great big mystery, and we're all detectives.
Hi Vincent,
You're the first person I've heard from that has had negative experiences from meditation. I guess it's similar to a drug, in which most people seem to benefit, but a rare few will experience nasty side effects. I'm sorry you went through that.
I truly believe that one should not submit blindly to a teaching or teacher. I've been very careful, and have studied some teachers with microscopes! Sometimes I think I'm too nitpicky, really.
Some would say I don't need a teacher, that I have my own teacher within, but I have a hard time working alone, and often become stagnant. I think a true teacher could help me find my inner guide.
"Some would say I don't need a teacher, that I have my own teacher within, but I have a hard time working alone, and often become stagnant. I think a true teacher could help me find my inner guide."
I feel the same way many times; however, I see YOU are on the right path, YOUR PATH...just watch out for the detours!
(I'm working on a post touching on how I dealt with these "negative" thoughts...you inspire me!!)
Howdy, John!
Staying en route is not so easy. I'm tempted by lots of detours. There are so many things I am curious about that I want to explore, so many texts I want to read through that probably have little if anything to do with real enlightenment. I feel like I'm in a candy store with only enough money to buy one piece of candy!
I will go check out your new post.
Whoops, sorry Jon. I misspelled your name. I meant Jon!
Thoughts beget more thoughts, and we get all entangled in our mental proliferation (or what is known as 'papanca' in Buddhist teachings). It's like stirring a glass of dirty water. If we let the water settle naturally on its own, the grime and grit will settle at the bottom and the water becomes clear. When we allow our mind to rest simply on its own, we are allowing our entangled thoughts untangle on its own. Then perhaps we may begin to see things more clearly without all our mental afflictions.
blessings,
Post a Comment